Curse

glacialphoenix · Nov 16, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I think most of us will agree that EoTN is significantly harder than the core campaigns. Even with the attribute point quests under your belt, getting to level 20 at least nets you some experience/skill with the profession. Without this additional skill new players have been going to EoTN, getting utterly dominated, then get frustrated and leave the game. I'm not saying, however, that having gotten to level 20 means you're a skilled player, or that it alone will let you succeed in EoTN, it just helps.

I completely agree. Also:

Quote:

I feel as if he'd finished Prophecies, bought and beaten Nightfall, he'd much be better prepared.

Well, NF skills vs Proph/Factions skills...

But I personally found NF harder than Proph or Factions. I'm not sure how much finishing Prophecies would have helped your close friend, but I think NF would definitely have helped in more ways than one. Factions is the easiest to complete in my opinion, so your poor friend really does sound kind of underprepared. My boyfriend joined the game after NF came out, but he only had Prophecies for quite a bit until he saved up enough money for NF. Then a group of us bought him Factions so he could have the whole set.

But, besides, the experience factor, he seemed quite crippled by only having one campaign. This is not to say that Prophecies sucked, or anything, but with three campaigns out, he was severely behind everyone else in terms of skill availability as well as experience. I think your friend has the same problem, especially since EotN incorporates skills from all three campaigns, and NF has, in my opinion, significantly more powerful skills than Proph/Factions.

Ariena Najea · Nov 16, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

But I personally found NF harder than Proph or Factions. I'm not sure how much finishing Prophecies would have helped your close friend, but I think NF would definitely have helped in more ways than one. Factions is the easiest to complete in my opinion, so your poor friend really does sound kind of underprepared. My boyfriend joined the game after NF came out, but he only had Prophecies for quite a bit until he saved up enough money for NF. Then a group of us bought him Factions so he could have the whole set.

I agree completely. Factions has the potential to be more challenging than Prophecies imo, but in any case the fact that it's so much shorter precludes gaining the same experience. Nightfall is definitely the hardest of the three, and also requires a lot more thought during the missions, which really helps to learn good tactics. I started playing when Factions came out, then subsequently beat Prophecies before buying Nightfall about 2 weeks after its release. I was caught off guard after having beaten the earlier two campaigns, and on my Monk (primary character) couldn't beat missions such as the Grand Court of Sebelkhet without a full guild party. Given that EoTN is so much harder, it only makes sense people would have similar troubles, likely to a higher magnitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

But, besides, the experience factor, he seemed quite crippled by only having one campaign. This is not to say that Prophecies sucked, or anything, but with three campaigns out, he was severely behind everyone else in terms of skill availability as well as experience. I think your friend has the same problem, especially since EotN incorporates skills from all three campaigns, and NF has, in my opinion, significantly more powerful skills than Proph/Factions.

That's a very good point you're making on the skills front. My friend plays elementalist, and most experienced PvE players I know find it hard to fathom running an effective nuker build without [[searing flames] or [[savannah heat], both Nightfall exclusive elites. Lacking other Nightfall skills on heroes is similarly challenging, such as [[dismiss condition] for Monk heroes, who otherwise can choose between [[mend ailment] and [[mend condition], the former taking too long to recharge and the latter not usable on the caster.

Among other problems, the storyline in EoTN is harder to follow than those of the core campaigns. Whereas in Factions or Nightfall (I'll exclude Prophecies because it is slightly more complicated, and sections of the game are easily skipped through running by unknowing players) you are led through a series of concise Primary Quests and Missions, in EoTN you need to do a lot more figuring out. During the preview weekend I was exploring with some guildies and ran into Frostmaw's Burrows with no clue what we were getting into. We quickly figured out that it was one of the new dungeons, but didn't understand its purpose or what the significance of the quest which referred to it given by the NPC outside the entrance in Jaga Moraine. Essentially, having played through the core games really helps because you get a good feel for all the different methods used in the game to advance you in the story, ranging from primary quests (and sometimes the requirement of completing side-quests to complete the primary) to missions, to mini-missions (first introduced in the Land of Heroes quest?) to simply being told where to go next.

I'm not suggesting it be mandatory to beat all three core games in order to access EoTN. Rather, there should be some message to the player similar to the one used for the "Difficulty: Master" quests in Nightfall. This would serve to tell players that EoTN is more akin to one of the elite areas and is at a higher difficulty than the core campaigns. I remember seeing a thread whose title was "am I retarded?" that was coming from an assassin player who was wondering why EoTN seemed impossible. Assassin is one of the most difficult classes to play effectively in PvE imo, and he clearly did not have the experience needed to go to EoTN at that time. Some posters in the thread if I remember right commiserated about their own troubles, while others explained the higher level of difficulty.

Faer · Nov 16, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I dislike the concept of catering to idiots.

DarkFlame · Nov 16, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

I dislike the concept of catering to idiots.

^That. Not Anet's fault(not entirely anyway) that the Journey to the North blessing makes newbies forget how to use their attribute points.

Ariena Najea · Nov 16, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

I dislike the concept of catering to idiots.

Agreed. So instead of making anything easier, let people know what they're getting into. It's very simple.

EoTN already has several existing problems stemming from trying to make it "easier." Namely, the attribute and health boosts for non-level-twenty characters which make newer players think they belong there. Also, giving clean, max weapons for the Hero Tutorial to "prepare you" for areas in which having the right equipment will save your life.

rohara · Nov 16, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

who cares. if someone wants to cripple themselves by not getting all their attribute points, then mind your own business and let them. jeez. it is not hurting you.

pamelf · Nov 16, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Nothing's stopping players comleting the extra attribute quests... This isn't an issue that needs to be fixed. I don't like however that EOTN is no longer for lvl 20's only. I liked it as a new form of end game content - does anyone know the thoughts behind why they changed that?

IlikeGW · Nov 16, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

I'm sure they'll be a million opinions on this since it's quite subjective.

I think as far as the Tyria quests, they're no longer balanced against the new games, and could do to be removed as far as being the attrib quests. I actually think they're kinda fun quests (well depends on what primary you're doing them probably) but the game runs on a much faster pacing in all the other expansions, and now those Tyria quests seem anachronistic. Also beating those quests will not teach people anything they can be run to the location and do it with hero/hench. Might as well make them worth money/xp/cap sigs and put something earlier at LA before people go to Nornland to level.

DarkFlame · Nov 16, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

who cares. if someone wants to cripple themselves by not getting all their attribute points, then mind your own business and let them. jeez. it is not hurting you.

Actually, it is. Its one of the reasons no one wants to pug anymore. There's too great a chance that whoever ends up in your pug really has no clue as to how to play, especially since EoTN is billed as end game content for lvl 20s.

Quote:

does anyone know the thoughts behind why they changed that?

Yes, too many non-lvl 20 players were complaining that they bought EoTN and were unable to enter it, since they were only "casual" players, unlike the rest of the lvl 20 "hardcore" crowd.

Ariena Najea · Nov 16, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

The change was implemented for two main reasons:
1) Further incentive for newer players to buy Eye of the North (ANet needs revenue for GW2)
2) Addition of the Platinum edition of Prophecies, which includes both Prophecies and Eye of the North

As for PUGs, as has been already posted the rampant lack of experience has strong negative effects on grouping. Most of the time, you're better off with h/h than inexperienced players. Generally I only take PUGs (even as a Monk) when the person in question seems intelligent (usually shown by good grammar and spelling) and capable. It's somewhat of a lottery, but can be well worth it. With this in mind, it's more fun (and usually more successful) to play with your Guild/Alliance.

germanturkey · Nov 16, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

^^ if you don't get to level twenty by simply playing the game, you're doing something wrong.. even with little time investment, if you do the primary missions and story missions, you'll hit 20. plus eotn was released so late into the series' lifespan that most players should be level 20 already..

MarlinBackna · Nov 17, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

I have an easy solution. When they turn level 20, give players a notification that they should complete the quests to get the full 200 attribute points. Makes sense to me.

Tom Swift · Nov 17, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

I have an easy solution. When they turn level 20, give players a notification that they should complete the quests to get the full 200 attribute points. Makes sense to me.

Agreed

The problem isn't that new players are "idiots." The problem is there are so many primary quests, side quests and skill quests with no guide about which ones are necessary that new players have no idea where in the three continents they should go to find the 2 quests they need.

I am also seeing more and more players in the position that they have no idea where to go to pick up story lines from their original chapter. They bop over to EotN, leaving behind an unfinished story line. But by the time they have finished EotN and maybe done a few things on other continents they have forgotten where they were in the storyline of their original chapter. This is especially true if they finished a mission but had not taken the next quest in the line because the primary quest category is blank for that campaign at that point.

It really wouldn't hurt and might help retain new players if the quest log had a notice about who to see to continue a story line and who to see to get your attribute points quests.

Depending on an unofficial source like wiki to let players know the basics of the game is, frankly, a little unprofessional on ANet's part and calling New players idiots because they don't realize things by osmosis is obnoxious on the part of experienced players.

Dr.Jones · Nov 17, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

I dislike the concept of catering to idiots.

the sad part is that 90% of new players are.

glacialphoenix · Nov 17, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Jones

the sad part is that 90% of new players are

I'd like to think that that's partly inexperience, rather than sheer thickheadedness. They are new players where everyone else has got a couple of years of experience, skillcaps, knowledge etc. on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

I have an easy solution. When they turn level 20, give players a notification that they should complete the quests to get the full 200 attribute points.

I agree with this.

I'm not really worried about characters below level 20 trying to join groups. Would you take a <20 character? I doubt it. I took my dervish over when she was about level 12, and I fully expected to have to solo or play with a guildie. Of course, I made sure I got my attribute points, so...

Striken7 · Nov 17, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Swift

Depending on an unofficial source like wiki to let players know the basics of the game is, frankly, a little unprofessional on ANet's part and calling New players idiots because they don't realize things by osmosis is obnoxious on the part of experienced players.

That's funny, I seem to remember people finding these quests just fine before they were ever on the Wiki.

If people can't figure out a simple, linear PvE game like Guild Wars, it's because of their own shortcomings, not Anets. Expecting a company to cater to the few players who can't think for themselves, when there has never been a "problem" with finding these quests before, is ridiculous.

And a little hint, if a person can't get the extra attribute points for themselves, those extra points aren't going to magically make them better players. That's why most people don't pug, because a bad player with 200 attribute points is still a bad player - and there's a lot of them.

ZenRgy · Nov 17, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Those bonus attribute points are useless, why bother?

illidan009 · Nov 17, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

That would ruin/delay my brawling to Legendary Survivor...I vote NO!

hurdlebeast · Nov 17, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

So let me get this right. New players rush through the game because their goal is not to enjoy the game but to get to max lvl complete the game and.. go back to WoW?

And EotN is causing problems?

Right.

It's always someone elses fault.

qft. if you rush through, you miss out. period. EOTN is an expansion, IMO, that should be played after you have beaten at least one of the main games. that's how i played it: Factions, Proph, EOTN, then Nightfall.

Nightow · Nov 17, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarlinBackna

I have an easy solution. When they turn level 20, give players a notification that they should complete the quests to get the full 200 attribute points. Makes sense to me.

Make it pop up every time they enter an explorable until they do both quests.

Also, have it make a very loud noise every time it comes up and while we're at it, make it flash neon colors.

That way, they can't just ignore it.